-Lake Siskiyou, CA sundown
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4-29-2017
-Orban at E.U. Parliament, Brussels, 4-26-17
Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban told leaders of his center-right EU political group on Saturday that he would comply with demands from Brussels to change measures branded an attack on academic freedom, the party said.
Orban himself, speaking in Hungarian to domestic television viewers, insisted he was not climbing down and said he would "negotiate" with the EU executive in the coming months and "implement the final result".
"Nobody will set conditions for Hungary," he told Hungarian reporters at a news conference on Saturday.
The apparent easing of tensions with Budapest came as EU national leaders met in Brussels to demonstrate unity ahead of Brexit negotiations. They agreed formal guidelines for those talks with Britain without further discussion.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who is also part of the conservative bloc, said actions would speak louder than words. "For me, and I believe this is also the case for the Commission, what matters are the actual results," she told a news conference after the Brussels summit. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hungary-eu-weber-idUSKBN17V07G
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/eu-tolerated-viktor-orban-hungarian-central-european-universitymore selected comments to this article follow:
Budanevey 3 Apr 2017 2:49
The EU isn't 'liberal democratic'. It's corporatist and authoritarian.
The campaign against Hungary, Poland and other Visegrad members is because they are blocking further Qualified Majority Votes on the EU's Migrant Relocation Scheme. It's another example of the EU undermining self-determination in pursuit of its alleged benevolent dictatorship.
George Soros happily uses his billions to try and advance global corporatism through various NGOs and institutions. Whether one likes Orban or not, it's for voters in Hungary to decide who governs them, not meddling billionaires or the EU threatening structural funds or Article 7 proceedings to try and bring about regime change. Once again, we see the EU for what it really is, an opponent of self-determination.
The EU isn't 'liberal democratic'. It's corporatist and authoritarian.
The campaign against Hungary, Poland and other Visegrad members is because they are blocking further Qualified Majority Votes on the EU's Migrant Relocation Scheme. It's another example of the EU undermining self-determination in pursuit of its alleged benevolent dictatorship.
George Soros happily uses his billions to try and advance global corporatism through various NGOs and institutions. Whether one likes Orban or not, it's for voters in Hungary to decide who governs them, not meddling billionaires or the EU threatening structural funds or Article 7 proceedings to try and bring about regime change. Once again, we see the EU for what it really is, an opponent of self-determination.
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Gallicdweller Budanevey 3 Apr 2017 3:08
The first line of your post says it all. From its very foundation it was a corporatist structure and over time this has been set in reinforced concrete.
The first line of your post says it all. From its very foundation it was a corporatist structure and over time this has been set in reinforced concrete.
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arizona7 3 Apr 2017 2:51
Shame on him, imagine caring about your own country , its people, its sovereignty, its security, instead of pandering to the grubby , crumbling EU Empire..................honestly , how "illiberal"????? is that./
Shame on him, imagine caring about your own country , its people, its sovereignty, its security, instead of pandering to the grubby , crumbling EU Empire..................honestly , how "illiberal"????? is that./
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francisa75 3 Apr 2017 2:53
He won a referendum with more than 90% of the votes, asking people what they want. What do you want fake democrats, who take decisions without asking nothing to the people ? He's been working for the inner peace not for press, not like you fake democrats letting assassins invade all the Europe, and only worried with your public big salaries.
He won a referendum with more than 90% of the votes, asking people what they want. What do you want fake democrats, who take decisions without asking nothing to the people ? He's been working for the inner peace not for press, not like you fake democrats letting assassins invade all the Europe, and only worried with your public big salaries.
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exiledblade1889 3 Apr 2017 2:54
Did Merkel consult him when she invited the 3rd world to Germany (through his country)?
Did Merkel consult him when she invited the 3rd world to Germany (through his country)?
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David williams 3 Apr 2017 2:56
If the EU, Guardian reporters, or anyone else believes in democracy they need respect the choice of Hungarian voters.
If the EU, Guardian reporters, or anyone else believes in democracy they need respect the choice of Hungarian voters.
Ironically it's the self-proclaimed liberals who are the biggest threat to democracy across the continent by seeking to place countries & people in a political straight jacket tailored to suit their agenda.
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Sullaa 3 Apr 2017 2:57
Meh.. he's the closest thing to the EU has to a dictatorship.. .well, apart from the EU itself.
Meh.. he's the closest thing to the EU has to a dictatorship.. .well, apart from the EU itself.
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babyboomer1957 3 Apr 2017 2:58
So if the voters don`t vote for mass immigration and multi-culturalism the EU should send the bully boys in to make sure they suck it up from Brussels ?
How very democratic, how very EU.
So if the voters don`t vote for mass immigration and multi-culturalism the EU should send the bully boys in to make sure they suck it up from Brussels ?
How very democratic, how very EU.
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norwichsage liberalcynic 3 Apr 2017 3:18
Flouting. Rather as Germany and France have flouted the rules for decades, whenever it suited them.
Flouting. Rather as Germany and France have flouted the rules for decades, whenever it suited them.
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WhoAreYa999 Sven Tyler
You may well have more 'press diversity', even though it's extremely EU biased.
On paper Germany may not 'control' the EU, however they are the most powerful in terms of economical might and pressure other countries into following suit.
Who's idea was it to invite millions of 'refugees' to the continent? The EUs or the German Chancellors? Exactly, now other countries are suffering because of it, causing division across the EU. What Germany says goes, whether you like it or not.
You may well have more 'press diversity', even though it's extremely EU biased.
On paper Germany may not 'control' the EU, however they are the most powerful in terms of economical might and pressure other countries into following suit.
Who's idea was it to invite millions of 'refugees' to the continent? The EUs or the German Chancellors? Exactly, now other countries are suffering because of it, causing division across the EU. What Germany says goes, whether you like it or not.
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chris1958 3 Apr 2017 3:07
Democracy isn't about giving the people what they vote for, it's about telling people that they are all scum if they vote for controlled immigration.
Democracy isn't about giving the people what they vote for, it's about telling people that they are all scum if they vote for controlled immigration.
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Carl Kalland AndrewStaden 3 Apr 2017 3:12
Make sure that people are Vetted properly. Confirm they have a job to go to, finances to support themselves. Exactly what I had to do when I emigrated.
Make sure that people are Vetted properly. Confirm they have a job to go to, finances to support themselves. Exactly what I had to do when I emigrated.
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AndrewStaden Carl Kalland 3 Apr 2017 3:20
There are 900,000 immigrants and emigrants to and from the UK each year. Have you even the remotest notion the effort and cost involved in checking that each immigrant has a job, that they have 'finances' and that they can support themselves? And to achieve what, precisely? What problem is it that you want to stop? Is it money? It is common knowledge that immigrants contribute vastly more to the economy than they take out. Is it terrorism? Well, the 7/7 bombers were born in Yorkshire; Lee Rigby's murderers were born in Lambeth; and the Westminster terrorist was born in Kent. So what exactly is the problem that the huge bureaucracy you want to create would resolve?
There are 900,000 immigrants and emigrants to and from the UK each year. Have you even the remotest notion the effort and cost involved in checking that each immigrant has a job, that they have 'finances' and that they can support themselves? And to achieve what, precisely? What problem is it that you want to stop? Is it money? It is common knowledge that immigrants contribute vastly more to the economy than they take out. Is it terrorism? Well, the 7/7 bombers were born in Yorkshire; Lee Rigby's murderers were born in Lambeth; and the Westminster terrorist was born in Kent. So what exactly is the problem that the huge bureaucracy you want to create would resolve?
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exiledblade1889 3 Apr 2017 3:08
Fancy a leader standing up for his country's values and defending its people - that will never do in the crazy EU world.
Fancy a leader standing up for his country's values and defending its people - that will never do in the crazy EU world.
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tomword 3 Apr 2017 3:09
Whoa! This comments section has been overwhelmed by hordes of Putinbots. Orban has close friends in Moscow, seemingly.
Whoa! This comments section has been overwhelmed by hordes of Putinbots. Orban has close friends in Moscow, seemingly.
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elfin1 tomword 3 Apr 2017 3:35
everyone is either a Putin bot or a bigoted racist when a different opinion.
everyone is either a Putin bot or a bigoted racist when a different opinion.
you people really are the new fascists..
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elfin1 moneymoney 3 Apr 2017 3:19
Why is it racist to want controlled immigration?
Why is it racist to want controlled immigration?
It's pastime of the virtue signalers to call people bigots.
This is the most compassionate and accommodating country on the planet.
Controlled migration allows time for integration uncontrolled migration creates ghettos and apartheid....there is a difference.
But you just keep writing your bigoted nonsense if it make you feel fluffy.
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Finduskeepus 3 Apr 2017 3:18
Well, he's certainly no angel. But frankly, if it's a choice between Orban's borders and Merkel's lunacy, I know which one I'd choose.
Well, he's certainly no angel. But frankly, if it's a choice between Orban's borders and Merkel's lunacy, I know which one I'd choose.
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Aethelfrith 3 Apr 2017 3:22
Where was the democracy when Merkel unilaterally opened to floodgates to unlimited immigration that saw countries like Hungary over run with complete strangers walking across its borders .
Where was the democracy when Merkel unilaterally opened to floodgates to unlimited immigration that saw countries like Hungary over run with complete strangers walking across its borders .
In the ego fuelled dystopia of the E.U ,. it seems its gravy train "politique" have lost all sense of reality and there exists a palpable disconnect from large swathes of its people. Avoiding democratic accountability at all costs, it moves on like a demonic juggernaut making decision after decision that suites the gravy train elite and undermines the standing, wealth and aspirations of the ordinary citizen.
Any politicians who don't follow the mantra of total subservience to the control freak federalist cause are branded as "extremists " or "racist". The truth is that the fascists of wealth disparity reside in Brussels, and they don't like challenges.
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Mattie Sleight 3 Apr 2017 3:34
Orban is painted as some kind of ghastly beast for not wanting his nations's delicate and well-preserved culture destroyed by waves of pushy new migrants who would rather walk on hot coals than integrate. It may seem harsh how they patrol their borders at present, but Merkel's Great Migration, and USA/UK meddling in Iraq, caused this. Why should lovely little Hungary suffer? Oh that's right, its because it is a white majority country that wants to preserve its identity.
Orban is painted as some kind of ghastly beast for not wanting his nations's delicate and well-preserved culture destroyed by waves of pushy new migrants who would rather walk on hot coals than integrate. It may seem harsh how they patrol their borders at present, but Merkel's Great Migration, and USA/UK meddling in Iraq, caused this. Why should lovely little Hungary suffer? Oh that's right, its because it is a white majority country that wants to preserve its identity.
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Duncan Fraser 3 Apr 2017 3:35
Yes, it's no surprise the EU dislikes a leader that is actually fond of his country.
Yes, it's no surprise the EU dislikes a leader that is actually fond of his country.
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roxusrollus blogsters 3 Apr 2017 4:05
I suspect Merkel does not believe that she "fucked up." There is a big idea hidden in the smoke and mirrors of her virtue signalling and is a piece of social engineering of epic proportions. The agenda, one so beloved of aforementioned Merkel and George Soros, is one that intends the change of the cultural, religious and societal make up of the countries and peoples that make up the continent of Europe in as short a time as possible.
I suspect Merkel does not believe that she "fucked up." There is a big idea hidden in the smoke and mirrors of her virtue signalling and is a piece of social engineering of epic proportions. The agenda, one so beloved of aforementioned Merkel and George Soros, is one that intends the change of the cultural, religious and societal make up of the countries and peoples that make up the continent of Europe in as short a time as possible.
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Andy Melia 3 Apr 2017 3:39
The problem with Orban, and the same can be said for many upstart politicians in Central and eastern Europe: the New Europe, if you like, is that the have the annoying habit of listening to what their people say. Take Robert Fico, PM in Slovakia; the EU asked his country to take in illegal migrants/refugees, he asked his people, they said no and so he said no. How annoying! The Left that have governed the West for the past few decades have never been interested in what their people think, and have followed an idealised political course (globalism) which they were sure would bring long term benefits in the long term. For this reason it was worth risking the ire of the little people when grander schemes were in play......but that's not how the world works. People do not want multiculturalism, do not want mass immigration, do not want their cultures/heritage changed, and do not want their change at such a staggering pace. It should be obvious now that what people want is stability, continuity, and the security that comes with sameness........with an exotic holiday to India or Thailand once a year for a taste of the unfamiliar. But they don't want it next door.
The problem with Orban, and the same can be said for many upstart politicians in Central and eastern Europe: the New Europe, if you like, is that the have the annoying habit of listening to what their people say. Take Robert Fico, PM in Slovakia; the EU asked his country to take in illegal migrants/refugees, he asked his people, they said no and so he said no. How annoying! The Left that have governed the West for the past few decades have never been interested in what their people think, and have followed an idealised political course (globalism) which they were sure would bring long term benefits in the long term. For this reason it was worth risking the ire of the little people when grander schemes were in play......but that's not how the world works. People do not want multiculturalism, do not want mass immigration, do not want their cultures/heritage changed, and do not want their change at such a staggering pace. It should be obvious now that what people want is stability, continuity, and the security that comes with sameness........with an exotic holiday to India or Thailand once a year for a taste of the unfamiliar. But they don't want it next door.
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20MinutesLater Chokeberry 3 Apr 2017 3:46
Is everyone who disagrees with you a paid Orban troll?
Is everyone who disagrees with you a paid Orban troll?
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9s955r3rqb79 3 Apr 2017 3:42
The time of accommodating Orbán must end now. It has failed. It has not moderated him, as EPP leaders continue to claim. Rather, it is radicalising others and hollowing out the very values the EU, and EPP, claim to stand for.
Radicalisation comes under terrorism, terrorism necessitates military action, there really is no other alternative but to go in and change the regime. The alternatives are destabilisation and ultimately the breakup of the EU, that must be avoided at any cost.
The time of accommodating Orbán must end now. It has failed. It has not moderated him, as EPP leaders continue to claim. Rather, it is radicalising others and hollowing out the very values the EU, and EPP, claim to stand for.
Radicalisation comes under terrorism, terrorism necessitates military action, there really is no other alternative but to go in and change the regime. The alternatives are destabilisation and ultimately the breakup of the EU, that must be avoided at any cost.
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Miserl ClareLondon 3 Apr 2017 4:07
Yes, that's right Clare. Everyone who disagrees with you is sick in the head, and they're all as bad as Stalin. That's right.
Yes, that's right Clare. Everyone who disagrees with you is sick in the head, and they're all as bad as Stalin. That's right.
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martinnangle ProfJake 3 Apr 2017 3:55
Getting chucked out of the EU would be welcome if it was possible. Look at the problems UK has just trying to walk out voluntarily.
Getting chucked out of the EU would be welcome if it was possible. Look at the problems UK has just trying to walk out voluntarily.
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ric21 Redman80 3 Apr 2017 3:56
"EU is a union that is based on liberal values, respect for human rights, support for refugee welfare, multiculturalism etc. "
Well that is demonstrably a silly statement 48 hours over the EU has overruled the right of Gibraltarians to enjoy self determination.
"EU is a union that is based on liberal values, respect for human rights, support for refugee welfare, multiculturalism etc. "
Well that is demonstrably a silly statement 48 hours over the EU has overruled the right of Gibraltarians to enjoy self determination.
Don't you think before you post stuff?
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martinnangle Redman80 3 Apr 2017 3:57
Problem with the EU is the rules change every second. You join this club under the rules of the time you enter the place but next day the EU has added a bunch of new ones to piss people off
Problem with the EU is the rules change every second. You join this club under the rules of the time you enter the place but next day the EU has added a bunch of new ones to piss people off
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GMH123 20MinutesLater 3 Apr 2017 4:00
But it's Euro- hypocrisy. Which makes it ok.
But it's Euro- hypocrisy. Which makes it ok.
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ID1125805 3 Apr 2017 4:02
A leader that does what his people want ?....Terrible....You must do what the left want. Now stop it or you will get....."the Label"
A leader that does what his people want ?....Terrible....You must do what the left want. Now stop it or you will get....."the Label"
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Zeroise 3 Apr 2017 4:09
Orban is standing up for his country against the EU, which is trying to force them to take thousands of immigrants. That is a completely unacceptable interference in a county's sovereignty.
Once a country is forced to admit people it does not want, it ceases to be a nation state.
Orban is standing up for his country against the EU, which is trying to force them to take thousands of immigrants. That is a completely unacceptable interference in a county's sovereignty.
Once a country is forced to admit people it does not want, it ceases to be a nation state.
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Thunderpants Annabel1968 3 Apr 2017 4:13
I doubt anyone joined the EU thinking they would have open borders with all of North Africa.
I doubt anyone joined the EU thinking they would have open borders with all of North Africa.
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dragonpiwo 3 Apr 2017 4:17
Orban was elected. Awful this democracy stuff. I mean, how dare people vote in someone! What a cheek! How dare the Brits vote to leave! How dare Poland vote in PiS! That voting stuff is illiberal and dangerous. I know, let's just ignore the results of referenda and hold them again till we get the right answer like in Ireland. That's EU liberal democracy. Let's impose austerity forever on electorates who don't want it. That's EU democracy. Let's allow millions of economic migrants into Europe from every corner of the earth without vetting them. That's Merkel's unilateral democracy ahem.
Orban was elected. Awful this democracy stuff. I mean, how dare people vote in someone! What a cheek! How dare the Brits vote to leave! How dare Poland vote in PiS! That voting stuff is illiberal and dangerous. I know, let's just ignore the results of referenda and hold them again till we get the right answer like in Ireland. That's EU liberal democracy. Let's impose austerity forever on electorates who don't want it. That's EU democracy. Let's allow millions of economic migrants into Europe from every corner of the earth without vetting them. That's Merkel's unilateral democracy ahem.
Orban, Faraj, Le Pen, Kaczynski and others are products of the EU. Get it? For this writer to say Orban is illiberal is pure hypocrisy. There is much in the EU that is illiberal--try fixing that elephant in the room before you go for the minnow.
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mishi maschi 3 Apr 2017 4:20
Wow, we have to think and vote how the EU wants us to, and make sure that their idea of how society works is ours too. No wonder people want to do away with the EU.
Wow, we have to think and vote how the EU wants us to, and make sure that their idea of how society works is ours too. No wonder people want to do away with the EU.
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CorbynforKing 3 Apr 2017 4:25
This just shows how far the Europhiles want to go in having a "united" Europe. They want the EU to basically overrule the democratic vote of individual states. No wonder we voted leave! There is something deeply sinister about the EU now it really is begining to resemble a police state in certain respects.
This just shows how far the Europhiles want to go in having a "united" Europe. They want the EU to basically overrule the democratic vote of individual states. No wonder we voted leave! There is something deeply sinister about the EU now it really is begining to resemble a police state in certain respects.
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Hermanovic 3 Apr 2017 4:27
This article is very typical for the European political elite, who are out of touch with normal Europeans, especially those living in central and eastern europe.
Hungarians have worked very hard to recover from the communist era. They became part of the EU for economical reasons, and not to participate in immigration fairy tales, written by wealthier western european countries.
We shouldn't jeopardize the EU and stability in Europe as a whole, merely because Orban does not want to copy-paste the liberal democracy as is common in Western Europe.
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Liberclown 3 Apr 2017 5:11
The Soros open borders vision is what has led to this mess in the first place - Orban is a symptom, not the diagnosis.
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Kiwi333 Liberclown 3 Apr 2017 5:49
Yes I have to agree as I live Germany - a huge yes to the EU but no to open borders. it is nothing about the refugees from Syria or another country at war but about gangs or clans of very violent criminals that can walz into Germany, kill a couple of elderly pensioners etc. and drive back home again without any sort of controls. This results pro right wing politics influencing all including the refugees who deserve our help after Germany earned billions in selling weapons to the Saudis etc.
OrangeZonker 3 Apr 2017 5:19
When the 1 million Africans trying to cross the Med arrive in Europe, voters might think Mr Orban has the right idea on certain issues
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jodro 3 Apr 2017 5:20
It seems like Orban and anti-EU stooges are out in force here, claiming that War is Peace and Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength and Orban a democrat and the EU anti-democratic. The points they make are so confused and fact-free and turning everything upside down that it's hard to even begin to make a coherent argument against them. But what about just accepting that the EU is a club, which like any club has the right to reprimand or evict a member who doesn't follow house rules? The EU is not trying to change the regime in Hungary, it's just protecting its democratic and human rights values. And hey, if Orban/the Hungarian people don't like these values, why don't they leave? But all these are moot points that will fall on deaf ears to Orban supporters and the anti-EU crowd, most of whom, by the evidence below, are so filled with hatred that they couldn't care less about facts or rational argument.
sunstone 3 Apr 2017 6:13
Jodro -
ruffledfeathers Brusselsexpats 3 Apr 2017 6:48
Has it not dawned on you that the EU will not admit that it might fail in any way whatever? Hence the failure of Article 50 to set out the situation of people who have settled in other countries. Hence Gibraltar suddenly being mentioned. They will do anything to keep their little empire together. That includes keeping the most costly members.
Rattel 3 Apr 2017 6:36
This week, Merkel took a strong stand against Orbán, as he attacked her refugee policies in a by-now familiar Islamophobic, far-right speech at the EPP meeting in Malta.
Merkel made an unilateral decision when she invited 'Syrian refugees' to Germany. She did not consult with other EU members, although it was clear that the many migrants, describing themselves as 'Syrian refugees' would have to cross EU countries to the East and South of Germany, in order to get to there. Hungary was one such country and its leader has every right to attack Merkel on the issue, it is neither Islamophobic nor evidence of right wing membership to raise the matter.
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cidcid Rattel 3 Apr 2017 6:41
Democracy is not what the people decide: it is what frau Merkel said.
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CDKBM180715 Rattel 3 Apr 2017 6:43
it is neither Islamophobic nor evidence of right wing membership to raise the matter.
Sorry, but if you paint all refugees, and indeed all Muslims, as terrorists, as Orban has done, it is Islamophobic.
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ruffledfeathers CDKBM180715 3 Apr 2017 6:46
The EU and the UN have now done that painting. They have admitted that most people arriving are not refugees.
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This article is very typical for the European political elite, who are out of touch with normal Europeans, especially those living in central and eastern europe.
Hungarians have worked very hard to recover from the communist era. They became part of the EU for economical reasons, and not to participate in immigration fairy tales, written by wealthier western european countries.
We shouldn't jeopardize the EU and stability in Europe as a whole, merely because Orban does not want to copy-paste the liberal democracy as is common in Western Europe.
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NeverMindTheBollocks 3 Apr 2017 4:59
Sounds like we need regime change there.
Sounds like we need regime change there.
Sure, people there voted for him, but the EU knows better what is good for Hungary and the whole of the EU. If people there refuse to vote the right way, we owe it to all to take such firm, but necessary, measures.
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Jacques P. NeverMindTheBollocks 3 Apr 2017 5:29
Time is getting ripe in EU for a French Revolution type of event. The elites should wake up before it's too late. They've ignored the people for too long.
Time is getting ripe in EU for a French Revolution type of event. The elites should wake up before it's too late. They've ignored the people for too long.
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BalazsKG 3 Apr 2017 5:01
Orbán must go, he’s governing my country into the darkest ages... You should live here and see how things are getting worse and worse. Let me tell you, it’s very depressing to live in an illiberal country. Anyone who states that everything is OK, since he’s a democratically elected prime minister is only seeing the surface. The democracy you are referring to has become a mere facade. No checks and balances, no free media, oligarchs everywhere getting rich from EU funds. You’re either an Orbán believer or a Soros sponsored traitor, let me tell you, this is trully miserable. My once democratic country is sinking, and obviously, reading your comments, we can’t count on your help... :-(
BalazsKG 3 Apr 2017 5:01
Orbán must go, he’s governing my country into the darkest ages... You should live here and see how things are getting worse and worse. Let me tell you, it’s very depressing to live in an illiberal country. Anyone who states that everything is OK, since he’s a democratically elected prime minister is only seeing the surface. The democracy you are referring to has become a mere facade. No checks and balances, no free media, oligarchs everywhere getting rich from EU funds. You’re either an Orbán believer or a Soros sponsored traitor, let me tell you, this is trully miserable. My once democratic country is sinking, and obviously, reading your comments, we can’t count on your help... :-(
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ruffledfeathers labrabbit 3 Apr 2017 6:09
Some of the liberal values take little account of society as a whole. Then you have a problem. Those values are no longer liberal. The liberals cannot see that. Which is why there is a backlash.
Some of the liberal values take little account of society as a whole. Then you have a problem. Those values are no longer liberal. The liberals cannot see that. Which is why there is a backlash.
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Bobbyjob lufkins1 3 Apr 2017 5:25
And unchecked migration from an entirely different culture is possibly to blame...rocket science it is not.
Bobbyjob lufkins1 3 Apr 2017 5:25
And unchecked migration from an entirely different culture is possibly to blame...rocket science it is not.
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Gordenron lufkins1 3 Apr 2017 5:30
The Council of Europe’s expert group
'expert' group?? Don't make me laugh.
Gordenron lufkins1 3 Apr 2017 5:30
The Council of Europe’s expert group
'expert' group?? Don't make me laugh.
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Liberclown 3 Apr 2017 5:11
The Soros open borders vision is what has led to this mess in the first place - Orban is a symptom, not the diagnosis.
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Kiwi333 Liberclown 3 Apr 2017 5:49
Yes I have to agree as I live Germany - a huge yes to the EU but no to open borders. it is nothing about the refugees from Syria or another country at war but about gangs or clans of very violent criminals that can walz into Germany, kill a couple of elderly pensioners etc. and drive back home again without any sort of controls. This results pro right wing politics influencing all including the refugees who deserve our help after Germany earned billions in selling weapons to the Saudis etc.
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Singapore101 3 Apr 2017 5:12
When the ruling party suggests that racism is acceptable and is not checked, its a slippery slope. Whatever the guise. Thus the interesting comments below about the EU 'keeping out'. As DT would say... SAD.
Singapore101 3 Apr 2017 5:12
When the ruling party suggests that racism is acceptable and is not checked, its a slippery slope. Whatever the guise. Thus the interesting comments below about the EU 'keeping out'. As DT would say... SAD.
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Jacques P. Singapore101 3 Apr 2017 5:35
'Racism' has become a meaningless bully word of the neoliberal inquisition, typically used without any justification against those who don't comply with their agenda.
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Jacques P. Singapore101 3 Apr 2017 5:35
'Racism' has become a meaningless bully word of the neoliberal inquisition, typically used without any justification against those who don't comply with their agenda.
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OrangeZonker 3 Apr 2017 5:19
When the 1 million Africans trying to cross the Med arrive in Europe, voters might think Mr Orban has the right idea on certain issues
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jodro 3 Apr 2017 5:20
It seems like Orban and anti-EU stooges are out in force here, claiming that War is Peace and Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength and Orban a democrat and the EU anti-democratic. The points they make are so confused and fact-free and turning everything upside down that it's hard to even begin to make a coherent argument against them. But what about just accepting that the EU is a club, which like any club has the right to reprimand or evict a member who doesn't follow house rules? The EU is not trying to change the regime in Hungary, it's just protecting its democratic and human rights values. And hey, if Orban/the Hungarian people don't like these values, why don't they leave? But all these are moot points that will fall on deaf ears to Orban supporters and the anti-EU crowd, most of whom, by the evidence below, are so filled with hatred that they couldn't care less about facts or rational argument.
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Thunderpants jodro 3 Apr 2017 5:34
Yes, but you can see Hungary's dilemma. When it signed up for the EU nobody expected massive unrest throughout N. Africa and Syria, resulting in an immigration crisis that is, whether we like it or not, changing Europe forever. This is not a reversible thing - and who can seriously blame a leader for wanting to be extremely cautious about having anything to do with it?
Yes, but you can see Hungary's dilemma. When it signed up for the EU nobody expected massive unrest throughout N. Africa and Syria, resulting in an immigration crisis that is, whether we like it or not, changing Europe forever. This is not a reversible thing - and who can seriously blame a leader for wanting to be extremely cautious about having anything to do with it?
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Roger Hudson jodro 3 Apr 2017 5:43
Democrat or not, he has the votes.
Roger Hudson jodro 3 Apr 2017 5:43
Democrat or not, he has the votes.
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Judit Seregélyes Roger Hudson 3 Apr 2017 6:02
János Kádár during the socialist times had 100% of the votes. So what?
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HappyExpat50 3 Apr 2017 5:22
Hot on the heels of the EU not feeling the love for the Democratically Elected Orban and his Party.
Serbia’s prime minister, Aleksandar Vučić, has won by a landslide in the country’s presidential election, further strengthening his rule in the Balkan country.
But the Democracy loving EU has this to say.
Serbian PM elected president as EU warns over increased powers
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/03/serbian-pm-aleksandar-vucic-elected-president-eu-warns-over-increased-powers
It would now seem that the EU think Democracy consists of.
1. Kow-towing to the EU.
2. The EU's version of Democracy is the only version of Democracy.
However, Vucic had this to say
There’s an idiom in Serbian – that only donkeys don’t change.
I think that is a great way of describing the EU
Judit Seregélyes Roger Hudson 3 Apr 2017 6:02
János Kádár during the socialist times had 100% of the votes. So what?
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HappyExpat50 3 Apr 2017 5:22
Hot on the heels of the EU not feeling the love for the Democratically Elected Orban and his Party.
Serbia’s prime minister, Aleksandar Vučić, has won by a landslide in the country’s presidential election, further strengthening his rule in the Balkan country.
But the Democracy loving EU has this to say.
Serbian PM elected president as EU warns over increased powers
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/03/serbian-pm-aleksandar-vucic-elected-president-eu-warns-over-increased-powers
It would now seem that the EU think Democracy consists of.
1. Kow-towing to the EU.
2. The EU's version of Democracy is the only version of Democracy.
However, Vucic had this to say
There’s an idiom in Serbian – that only donkeys don’t change.
I think that is a great way of describing the EU
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jodro HappyExpat50 3 Apr 2017 6:13
The EU has every right to comment and defend its values. Perhaps you would care to actually address the issues the EU raises? Otherwise, why don't you leave the EU?
The EU has every right to comment and defend its values. Perhaps you would care to actually address the issues the EU raises? Otherwise, why don't you leave the EU?
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Bobbyjob 3 Apr 2017 5:23
Yes..silence him..that’ll do it.
Yes..silence him..that’ll do it.
Just reading liberal views on the world, all the students are amazing, a wonderland of intelligence from around the planet, the truth is they are ordinary, they bring cultural baggage.
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Baranta 3 Apr 2017 5:24
What a strange omission is NOT to mention the other universities in Hungary found guilty in operational affairs together with the CEU, and the fact that the social and economic ideology and dogmatism so much preached by the Soros University was overwhelmingly responsible for closing down entire swathes of Hungarian industry and companies, never cried for by the author and others now so concerned. Karma is a bitch, indeed.
What a strange omission is NOT to mention the other universities in Hungary found guilty in operational affairs together with the CEU, and the fact that the social and economic ideology and dogmatism so much preached by the Soros University was overwhelmingly responsible for closing down entire swathes of Hungarian industry and companies, never cried for by the author and others now so concerned. Karma is a bitch, indeed.
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cidcid wehavemice 3 Apr 2017 5:37
True. Orban is a Russian agent. Like Farage and Trump.
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North_by_Northwest cidcid 3 Apr 2017 6:03
Zzzzzzzzzz.
True. Orban is a Russian agent. Like Farage and Trump.
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North_by_Northwest cidcid 3 Apr 2017 6:03
Zzzzzzzzzz.
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Judit Seregélyes Simon_1956_Vintage 3 Apr 2017 5:57
75% of Hungarians say that the country should remain in the EU.
Judit Seregélyes Simon_1956_Vintage 3 Apr 2017 5:57
75% of Hungarians say that the country should remain in the EU.
And the EU should stand by those Hungarians who did nit vote for Orbán (they are the real majority) as well. Simon_1956_Vintage
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Judit Seregélyes 3 Apr 2017 6:08
Has there been a referendum on EU membership in Hungary recently then? Oops, must have missed that - or did the Guardian fail to report the event?
Has there been a referendum on EU membership in Hungary recently then? Oops, must have missed that - or did the Guardian fail to report the event?
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t0nymod 3 Apr 2017 5:34
"Hence, the struggle over CEU is not just about that unique university, it is about all universities, and it is about liberal democracy. If we don’t take a stand now, we will be fighting similar measures in Poland and other countries soon."
The writer really needs to look at what's happening on campuses all over the west and start to understand that her own academic freedom is not really under threat from authoritarian style leaders like Orban, but more so from the PC brigade, and so called 'progressive colleagues,' especially in social sciences' who attempt to ban all controversial ideas that go against their narrative. Orban is much less of a threat to universities than the 'regressive left' and their 'proto-fascist' ideology.
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t0nymod 3 Apr 2017 5:34
"Hence, the struggle over CEU is not just about that unique university, it is about all universities, and it is about liberal democracy. If we don’t take a stand now, we will be fighting similar measures in Poland and other countries soon."
The writer really needs to look at what's happening on campuses all over the west and start to understand that her own academic freedom is not really under threat from authoritarian style leaders like Orban, but more so from the PC brigade, and so called 'progressive colleagues,' especially in social sciences' who attempt to ban all controversial ideas that go against their narrative. Orban is much less of a threat to universities than the 'regressive left' and their 'proto-fascist' ideology.
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orban does not give a crap about Hungary. He is desperately trying to remain on the top of the trash pile my country is slowly becoming.
The 'He is putting Hungarians first' and the 'He is concerned about the Islamisation of Europe' line of thinking is painfully naive. Xenophobic ideas are the easiest to sell, especially in todays political climate in Hungary where people are desperate to find somebody to blame for the non-existing economy and falling living standards (EU, jews, immigrants, exotic conspiracy theories).
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.ruffledfeathers balint somogyi 3 Apr 2017 5:49
The basis of Islam is to spread across the world. You do know that?
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Thunderpants balint somogyi 3 Apr 2017 6:01
Well it's good to hear from someone inside Hungary. Why is it in decline in your opinion?
The basis of Islam is to spread across the world. You do know that?
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Thunderpants balint somogyi 3 Apr 2017 6:01
Well it's good to hear from someone inside Hungary. Why is it in decline in your opinion?
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hugodegauche 3 Apr 2017 5:53
I don't like everything he says but in general it seems pretty spot on. But the idea that universities are 'critical and independent' is about as funny a thing as I have read on here for ages. Put it this way I challenge anyone to apply for a job at a University and mention any vaguely conservative opinions on anything and see how you get on :)
I don't like everything he says but in general it seems pretty spot on. But the idea that universities are 'critical and independent' is about as funny a thing as I have read on here for ages. Put it this way I challenge anyone to apply for a job at a University and mention any vaguely conservative opinions on anything and see how you get on :)
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Tom1Wright 3 Apr 2017 5:58
To reject Orban - who was freely elected - is to reject by proxy the people of Hungary, and similar figures in Eastern Europe, with potentially Brexit style complications, because yes - immigration is that big a deal.
Encouraging an EU response is encouraging the break up of the EU. Eastern Europe isn't happy either with immigration - huge numbers coming to Europe to escape poverty and war - or emigration, which largely involves a massive chunk of their youth moving to other parts of Europe where there are more jobs. And a country's youth is its future - they are being robbed.
We'd all get on better if we respected ordinary voters and their opinions instead of labelling them as ‘illiberal'.
To reject Orban - who was freely elected - is to reject by proxy the people of Hungary, and similar figures in Eastern Europe, with potentially Brexit style complications, because yes - immigration is that big a deal.
Encouraging an EU response is encouraging the break up of the EU. Eastern Europe isn't happy either with immigration - huge numbers coming to Europe to escape poverty and war - or emigration, which largely involves a massive chunk of their youth moving to other parts of Europe where there are more jobs. And a country's youth is its future - they are being robbed.
We'd all get on better if we respected ordinary voters and their opinions instead of labelling them as ‘illiberal'.
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PaulDLion 3 Apr 2017 6:07
A nice little puff-piece in favour of George Soros' Open Society Foundation, but it does not address the reasons why many Europeans are not happy with Globalisation. Turning people like Victor Orban and Marine Le Pen into pantomine villains does not advance our political understanding of the underlying issues.
PaulDLion 3 Apr 2017 6:07
A nice little puff-piece in favour of George Soros' Open Society Foundation, but it does not address the reasons why many Europeans are not happy with Globalisation. Turning people like Victor Orban and Marine Le Pen into pantomine villains does not advance our political understanding of the underlying issues.
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balint somogyi MRTee 3 Apr 2017 6:51
The corruption in Hungary has never reached the current levels since 1990. Most of his voters voted for him in 2010 because they thought it couldn't be worse than the previous government led by the MSZP. Well, it could.
balint somogyi MRTee 3 Apr 2017 6:51
The corruption in Hungary has never reached the current levels since 1990. Most of his voters voted for him in 2010 because they thought it couldn't be worse than the previous government led by the MSZP. Well, it could.
Orban did not invent corruption in Hungary, but he pretty much centralized it.
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fideltheblue 3 Apr 2017 6:13
Yes why doesn't the EU get rid of him, why do they tolerate him? Perhaps it's because for good or bad he actually was elected to represent his Country as their leader. An unfortunate truth. Of course if the EU had a single government his minority across the block would be miniscule and could easily be ignored and democracy could continue unabated. Why ever did we vote to leave I wonder?
fideltheblue 3 Apr 2017 6:13
Yes why doesn't the EU get rid of him, why do they tolerate him? Perhaps it's because for good or bad he actually was elected to represent his Country as their leader. An unfortunate truth. Of course if the EU had a single government his minority across the block would be miniscule and could easily be ignored and democracy could continue unabated. Why ever did we vote to leave I wonder?
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sunstone 3 Apr 2017 6:13
Jodro -
you talk about imposed mass mostly non-Christian immigration, EU club rules - obey or leave (as if future Member states will be allowed ...), the problem is the goalposts are ever moving and not in the good way for the people. We don't need thousands of rules to trade. Nor any of the other crackpot ideas thought up by the overpaid bureaucrats, far away from the real world in their expensive palaces….
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North_by_Northwest 3 Apr 2017 6:16
Exactly what kind of powers do the Islington left think the EU should have? I'm sure they'd love it if there was a Europewide Stasi type organization to enforce liberal opinion.
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North_by_Northwest 3 Apr 2017 6:16
Exactly what kind of powers do the Islington left think the EU should have? I'm sure they'd love it if there was a Europewide Stasi type organization to enforce liberal opinion.
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aurlius North_by_Northwest 3 Apr 2017 6:22
This has nothing to do with what the 'Islington left think' nor about EU powers.
aurlius North_by_Northwest 3 Apr 2017 6:22
This has nothing to do with what the 'Islington left think' nor about EU powers.
It is about standing up to illiberal autocrats. If you can take the chip off your shoulder for a moment you might understand the issue here.
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North_by_Northwest aurlius 3 Apr 2017 6:26
Illiberal? You mean not left-wing enough?
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North_by_Northwest Bramblefly 3 Apr 2017 6:23
He's a popular and democratically elected leader. The fact that you, I, or the bloody EU don't like him is irrelevant.
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North_by_Northwest aurlius 3 Apr 2017 6:26
Illiberal? You mean not left-wing enough?
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North_by_Northwest Bramblefly 3 Apr 2017 6:23
He's a popular and democratically elected leader. The fact that you, I, or the bloody EU don't like him is irrelevant.
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Bramblefly North_by_Northwest 3 Apr 2017 6:29
He's a fascist who would undermine democracy as you and I know it. A pound shop erdogan only kept that way by the tolerance of neighbouring liberal democracies. I hope the future actions of those EU neighbours grind him into political dust before he does too much damage to his country and people.
He's a fascist who would undermine democracy as you and I know it. A pound shop erdogan only kept that way by the tolerance of neighbouring liberal democracies. I hope the future actions of those EU neighbours grind him into political dust before he does too much damage to his country and people.
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Tradx666 3 Apr 2017 6:20
It's for the Hungarian people and the Hungarian people only to 'deal' with Orban. They still have elections, and at the next one if they disagree with what he's doing, then they can 'deal' with him….
Tradx666 3 Apr 2017 6:20
It's for the Hungarian people and the Hungarian people only to 'deal' with Orban. They still have elections, and at the next one if they disagree with what he's doing, then they can 'deal' with him….
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Tradx666 bertnairobi 3 Apr 2017 6:36
It's not for us to agree or disagree with, the whole point of the article is some warped attempt to try and bring about outside action against a legitimate (as far as we know) elected government and leader.
If the people of Hungry disagree with his actions, they'll get their chance to show it when they next vote - until then, we need to keep out of it - if we hadn't been making (we being the EU) offers of support and overtures to the Ukrainian opposition, we wouldn't have the mess in the Ukrainian and the thousands of lives it's claimed - all in the name of EU expansion and creating a 'liberal democracy we can agree with'.
It amazes me how the Guardian and so many on the far left can preach non-interference - unless it now suits them.
Tradx666 bertnairobi 3 Apr 2017 6:36
It's not for us to agree or disagree with, the whole point of the article is some warped attempt to try and bring about outside action against a legitimate (as far as we know) elected government and leader.
If the people of Hungry disagree with his actions, they'll get their chance to show it when they next vote - until then, we need to keep out of it - if we hadn't been making (we being the EU) offers of support and overtures to the Ukrainian opposition, we wouldn't have the mess in the Ukrainian and the thousands of lives it's claimed - all in the name of EU expansion and creating a 'liberal democracy we can agree with'.
It amazes me how the Guardian and so many on the far left can preach non-interference - unless it now suits them.
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ruffledfeathers Brusselsexpats 3 Apr 2017 6:48
Has it not dawned on you that the EU will not admit that it might fail in any way whatever? Hence the failure of Article 50 to set out the situation of people who have settled in other countries. Hence Gibraltar suddenly being mentioned. They will do anything to keep their little empire together. That includes keeping the most costly members.
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Rattel 3 Apr 2017 6:36
This week, Merkel took a strong stand against Orbán, as he attacked her refugee policies in a by-now familiar Islamophobic, far-right speech at the EPP meeting in Malta.
Merkel made an unilateral decision when she invited 'Syrian refugees' to Germany. She did not consult with other EU members, although it was clear that the many migrants, describing themselves as 'Syrian refugees' would have to cross EU countries to the East and South of Germany, in order to get to there. Hungary was one such country and its leader has every right to attack Merkel on the issue, it is neither Islamophobic nor evidence of right wing membership to raise the matter.
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cidcid Rattel 3 Apr 2017 6:41
Democracy is not what the people decide: it is what frau Merkel said.
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CDKBM180715 Rattel 3 Apr 2017 6:43
it is neither Islamophobic nor evidence of right wing membership to raise the matter.
Sorry, but if you paint all refugees, and indeed all Muslims, as terrorists, as Orban has done, it is Islamophobic.
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ruffledfeathers CDKBM180715 3 Apr 2017 6:46
The EU and the UN have now done that painting. They have admitted that most people arriving are not refugees.
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